MMF: Publications | In Conversation
May 14, 2025
Rebecca Miralrio, author of “Museum Internships as Sites of Institutional Reform”
Sierra Van Ryck deGroot, author of “Caring from the Start: Why We Must Invest in Interns as the Future of Museums”
Discussion via Zoom moderated by Liz Levine, MMF Head of Programs
Liz Levine (MMF) We paired your pieces because they offer complementary but distinct perspectives on the museum internship, both as a tangible program of the museum ecosystem as well as a reflection of broader museum structures and priorities. After reading each other’s pieces—the perspective of a recent intern and a current internship supervisor—what are your takeaways?
Rebecca Miralrio (RM) There’s a lot of variability to internships depending on funding and staff. My first internship had a program manager and was remote. There was more flexibility, and it gave the organizers more time to really think about what they wanted us to learn. That was in 2021 when it was still more common for people to work from home. And luckily I experienced a positive outcome of that.
MMF Sierra, you also talk about a moment in the early and mid-pandemic. For some folks in back-of-house or managerial roles, it was a window into the “sabbatical mode” that Rebecca talks about in her piece. Without the churn of one exhibition or program after another, it was a chance to experience another way of operating.
Sierra Van Ryck deGroot (SVRD) I think it’s true. We had this moment to think about what exactly we wanted someone to get out of an internship. We realized that when we’re on site, it’s easy to have someone shadow you. When we went virtual, we had to think about it as an experiential learning opportunity and how to translate practical experience as well as what’s learned in the classroom. Those of us in museum education were able to revisit shared values and goals for our interns.
But we also noticed that internships were the first thing to be cut. We can’t talk about the future of museums if every institution is closing its doors on internships and fellowships since they are a key entry point into the field. As we continue to struggle with funding across the field, interns and other emerging professionals are increasingly at risk of being deprioritized. Job security is really limited to a handful of people. We need investment so that more staff can feel that kind of support.
RM I do think that there should be a throughline focused on interns’ experiences. I’ve had internships where I didn’t feel like there was a curriculum or benchmarks. I didn’t know how to ask for what I wanted because I didn’t know how it would be received, which created an isolating experience.
SVRD That missing dialogue between supervisors and interns is something I address in my piece. I also think that it comes down to how internships are planned. I agree that curriculum is one of the biggest areas of focus for me because internships should not be a replacement for paid work.
Something else we both address is the capacity of managers. I’ve had fantastic managers who are burnt out and pouring work on me. I’ve also had internship experiences or mentorship placements that seemed poorly thought out, and I felt like I didn’t even cross people’s minds during the day. So I always try to make sure there are tangible takeaways for our interns. If I can point out three skills or experiences all of my interns leave with, then I feel I’ve done my job as an internship supervisor.
That brings me to something else you mentioned, Rebecca: the internship program is a window into the organization’s culture. You can see all the flaws in the organization itself if you look at the internship program—how it’s built, the way the curriculum is written, who is in charge of it.
MMF On that note, something that struck me about your piece, Rebecca, was your argument that the museum internship is a convergence of so many structural issues. It is where early-career professionals intersect with long-standing organizational structures, and that is why it is a site of both challenge and opportunity. Tell us more about that.
RM When I started writing my piece, I did some research about the history of internships, which originated in the medical field. That led me to thinking about how successful internships are like apprenticeships, with knowledge, experience, and values passed down from experienced practitioners. Interns need to be taught how to do this work so they can go on to become the people in museums who do it.
SVRD That’s how it’s supposed to be! When we think about it, the museum field is so young. It didn’t really become a professionalized sector until the second half of the 20th century, and with that in mind, I would say that there’s a lack of standardization in our field relative to others, like medicine or law. I think that lack of structure leaves people feeling like they weren’t appropriately trained or supported. As nonprofits, we’re supposed to be gathering places for the community, but if that doesn’t extend to how we treat our staff, starting with interns, why would anyone want to be here?
MMF It’s interesting that you’ve both talked about medicine and law as fields that have structured career pathways. These professions also have some of the highest pay and are valued by society in a way that nonprofit and arts and culture work generally isn’t.
Another common thread between your essays is your intended audience. I read both of your pieces as trying to speak to folks in positions of power and those who are mentors. Why did you focus there, rather than on interns or early-career professionals directly?
SVRD It’s important to reiterate to leadership—who are often focused on external pressures—that when interns have good or bad experiences at museums, word gets around. It is a reflection of your museum’s culture. We want people to be talking about how incredible our program is, how well we treat interns, how there are job opportunities to follow. These programs shouldn’t exist to satisfy a temporary need for labor. Programs should serve and support the next generation of museum workers who are also future leaders.
RM I start my piece by saying that I went into museums because I want to be a curator—this is the audience I most wish to reach. Curatorial departments are often favored by museum directors, many of whom were curators themselves. Because I’m having these experiences during curatorial internships, and I know these same curators may someday be leading museums, I see an opportunity to influence the culture.
MMF It’s both personal to you and your career goals, but it’s also a kind of power analysis: identifying who’s holding power within these institutions and where there’s an opportunity to shift that. That’s something that we think about a lot at MMF because these folks haven’t yet become managers or directors. There’s still an opportunity to disrupt the inheritance of bad or outdated management styles and shift toward better practices.
Okay, final question: as museums face aggressive funding cuts and threats to their programming, I can see how a culture of urgency—which you’ve both decried in your pieces—could become even more the norm. Leaders might say: how can we take “time off” right now? How would you each answer that? Why is a culture of care and slowing down important?
RM The first thing that comes to mind for me are the recent layoffs in the news and how people have responded. I don’t know how much museums care about what their audiences think of them, but their communities aren’t going to go to the museum if it’s in the headlines for the wrong reasons. So I think it’s a matter of deciding what museums value—their boards or their communities.
SVRD It’s really hard to answer this without addressing larger issues in the field. But I think the biggest thing right now is talking about the importance of rest in actually sustaining productivity. You can’t fuel something from an empty tank, and that’s what we’ve been doing. Yet because we are still producing, people think you can do more with less, but it’s not sustainable. If just one influential institution set an example of changing this culture of urgency, maybe other museums would follow.
A museum is nothing without the people who work there. Workers are the ones who make the art come to life for visitors. If we don’t care for museum workers from the beginning of their careers as interns and fellows, all the way up to leadership, then we are not doing our job of stewarding the future of our sector.
MMF So rest is in the best interest of the institution and the field. It makes me think of farming practices where they let the land rest because they know it will be more productive the next year. Rest and productivity are not mutually exclusive.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.